> Sandy Denny > Obituaries, Interviews and Articles > Gerry Conway / Joe Boyd

Gerry Conway / Joe Boyd

Hokey Pokey #24, Autumn 1991

This is an excerpt from a rather lengthy interview with Gerry Conway (ex-Fotheringay). In this chapter Gerry speaks about Sandy, Fotheringay and Joe Boyd. In the other chapters Gerry describes his pre- and post Fotheringay career. Those chapters have been omitted, as they are totally unrelated to Sandy Denny or Fotheringay. Later on, Joe Boyd tells his side of the story.

[Gerry played with Trevor in the group 'Eclection' before joining Fotheringay]

- Was there then a fairly smooth transition from Eclection to Fotheringay?

Well, we met up with Sandy and she was keen - Sandy and Trevor were going out together at the time and we'd often meet - I never quite understood Sandy's motives, why she did the things she did.

- She seemed to be frightened of success. Every time it came close she seemed to destroy it.

She certainly would only do things on her terms. She gave managers a terrible run-around - they'd suggest that she did this and that to further her career and if she thought it was crap she would just not entertain it. Eventually they'd either give up the ghost or continue to tear their hair out.

I think we just decided that we would form a band. There was Trevor, Sandy and myself and that left us to find a bass and guitar player. Someone knew Albert Lee and he recommended Pat Donaldson and so we had a group. I don't know what it was in those days - maybe it's just beginning things - it wasn't the business-conscious way we do things today. Everything was a bit stiff and formal and it seemed to take quite a while: getting to know you time and planning and all sorts of neuroses going on, wondering what's happening. After a couple of weeks or so of rehearsals, Albert would sort of sit in a corner and by this time Trevor had already done his usual thing and got the publicity photos. Eventually Trevor said "I don't know if Albert's happy, we'll have to tackle him." Albert had virtually not uttered a word in two weeks so we asked him and he said "Well, I've been meaning to say".

He left and I'm not sure who knew Jerry (Donahue) but I don't remember anybody else trying out. Jerry turned up and loved it instantly and that goes a long way. We set about rehearsals in earnest and that was the beginnings of a very happy band. Great memories and we're still the same today. Great fun.

- But too short-lived and with an unhappy ending.

Much too short. You must know the story?

- (Carefully avoiding litigation.) Yes.

I think Joe does have to take the blame, basically. I suppose I can see it from his point of view. He was frustrated that Sandy was not pursuing a solo career because she was being voted Number 1 Singer by Melody Maker and getting rave reviews and then she did this U-turn and formed Fotheringay which was not on the books at all. I don't think Joe was for the band from day one but it took until three or four tracks into the second album when he appeared one day and announced the news. He'd finally persuaded her to do it. She hated the solo career and when it came to the records she'd just use us - the group in disguise.

[end of chapter, Jerry continues on another (non-related) subject]

> Sandy Denny > Obituaries, Interviews and Articles > Gerry Conway / Joe Boyd

Gerry Conway / Joe Boyd

Hokey Pokey #28, Autumn 1992

The interview with Gerry Conway in issue 24 generated some correspondence about the demise of FOTHERINGAY and the part played by Mr Boyd. Ever conscious of the deliberations of the Press Council, the Hokey Pokey editorial board decided to seek Joe Boyd's own recollection of those events twenty years ago. The interview took place at the offices of Rykodisc on December 12 last year.

JB. All history is subjective - ask any two people about the same event last evening and they will remember things slightly differently. The Fotheringay story really began with a crisis phone-call I got from Simon Nicol. Fairport were on their way to a gig in Copenhagen, they had already gone through Customs and Sandy had failed to make the flight. I ended-up going round to her house and having a long chat with her. After the long period following the car crash and recording 'Liege & Lief' the band were ready to tour. There were US and more Continental dates planned, and the guys were really keen, they wanted to go on the road. Sandy didn't and became more and more fearful of flying. She didn't want to be away from Trevor for long periods of time, and felt that she should leave Fairport. Sandy was nervous that if she did leave the group she wouldn't get a recording deal. I said, you must be joking. David Anderle was head of A&R at A&M Records - he had produced the Judy Collins album with 'Who Knows Where The Time Goes ?' and A&M were the American publishers of the song - there would be no problem about A&M being interested in Sandy's further recording career. I think during that conversation she also expressed her reservations about doing a solo record, and she said she might form a group.

Right from the beginning Sandy and I had diverse ideas about her career. This was right in the middle of my working on the Nick Drake record, and the idea of making that kind of record with Sandy had me drooling. I told her all the best musicians would love to play for her solo record, she would be worth more to A&M as a solo artists, than as a member of a new group. Anyway the question was not resolved. Sandy left Fairport.

Chris Blackwell was in the process of negotiating with Capitol to start the Island label in America. Island had options on any future record of Sandy's, and if A&M didn't make a good deal with Sandy, Chris would have loved to have her on Island in the US. A&M eventually came up with a $40.000 advance figure - twice what they paid for Fairport Convention albums - and an immense amount of money in 1970. By the time I returned from California with this offer, Sandy had already begun rehearsals with Albert Lee, Pat Donaldson, Gerry Conway and Trevor. There were some problems with prior work commitments that Albert had, and Jerry Donahue came in as a replacement.

I told Sandy, right from the beginning, that I couldn't manage a new group, I didn't have the time or the energy. I wasn't sympathetic to the project.

Fotheringay bought a Bentley to tour in, and bought their own p.a. - nick-named 'Stonehenge' because of its immense size - yet, it was obviously going to take some time to build up to the same kind of fees that Fairport had. I kept telling Sandy that she would need to tour to support the expense of the band …the very position she left Fairport because she didn't want to be touring all the time. As a solo artiste she could tour twice a year, only putting a band together for the tour.

HP. Wasn't that the era of the group? It wasn't so common for solo artistes to take a pick-up band on the road then.

JB. It depends. Certainly when Steve Winwood left Spencer Davis he formed Traffic, but I was thinking of Sandy in the context of American singers like Joni Mitchell or Judy Collins. Cat Stevens was around then and would tour in that way…it wasn't an alien concept.

Be that as it may, we went into the studio and made the record. It wasn't an easy record to make.

HP. In what way? The band had rehearsed a good deal, they'd performed much of the material on radio sessions.

JB. They weren't a tight band. With Fotheringay everything was a struggle. I think 'The Sea' and 'The Pond And The Stream' are two of the most unbelievable, fantastic songs. I adore those songs, and probably put more care into the production of those songs than into some of the others. 'Peace In The End' didn't seem to be worth putting on record. It might have been that I was the wrong person for the job because of my lack of enthusiasm for the basic concept behind the group.

In the late autumn we went back into the studio to begin work on the second album. By that time I was negotiating the sale of Witchseason. I felt that the generation of artistes signed to Witchseason were all growing-up and were now going to do what they were going to do without regard to what I said. It felt logical, as though a cycle was being completed.

The problems we had on the first album - instead of working themselves out whilst the group were touring during the summer - were worse. In retrospect I think I probably wasn't the easiest person to get along with at that time. I was under tremendous pressure to get all these projects finished before I left for California. Sound Techniques studio was block-booked, I was there everyday, working with Fairport, Nick Drake, Mike Beron and Chris McGregor. With Fotheringay it was very frustrating, we were getting nowhere fast and nobody was very happy with what was being recorded. Again, with retrospect, maybe that was the point to bow out. John Wood, who was my engineering right arm, had chosen not to do the first Fotheringay album. When I was working with John it was easy to turn an act over to him, and say John will be your producer now. It wasn't the same way with Jerry Boys then - he's become a fantastic engineer at Livingstone Studios - but wasn't the strong personality John Wood was. The group would have had to get somebody new in from outside.

Sandy, Trevor and I think Pat Donaldson, and I ended up having a meal in the pub opposite Sound Techniques the week before Christmas, twenty-one years ago. We hadn't finished our target for that day's recording. We sat there eating our lamb chops, chips and peas, Sandy was very upset. She was despairing of what they were going to do. The record wasn't going well, it was taking longer so it was costing more, and the group was running out of money. Sandy was saying, what do you think I should do ?. I replied that she should do what I had said in the first place; disband the group and be a solo artiste. Sandy said if I did that would I stay in Britain ? This is the most contentious microsecond of the whole story. I recall that I said I'd already sold the company, and been appointed director of music services at Warner Brothers, if there was anything that could make me want to undo those steps it was what she'd just said. The next morning I got a call from Roy Guest, Sandy's manager, asking me to a meeting with Sandy. When I arrived, she said, I did it. I've broken up the group. I said I thought that was good and that I would try and arrange to come back and produce her record if she wanted me to. We could do part of the record in London and part in Los Angeles. Sandy said 'you mean you're not going to stay ?'. I said I would love to record and album with her, but I couldn't unsell Witchseason.

My feeling in retrospect is that if it was such an important turning-point, if she wouldn't have broken-up the group if she had known I was still going to California, then a series of 'phone calls could have put the group back together.

HP. The whole issue comes down to what is now remembered, and the feeling of a large body of fans that Fotheringay were capable of great things. Your departure somehow put a spanner in the works.

JB. My feeling is that Fotheringay's recording career might have gone smoother if I hadn't been around. I've always felt that my skills as a record producer are to do with creating an atmosphere in the studio were a musician can do his best work. I have to accept that any negative feelings I have will have a negative effect on the recording. With hindsight, I was guilty of not saying 'I don't want to produce this record, you should look for another producer'. However, the logic of the group dying if I stayed or living if I went, has always escaped me.

HP. Do you think Sandy's uncertainty about a solo career coloured her subsequent records?

JB. I don't know. Sandy's four solo records are mostly very, very good, and generally better as whole albums than 'Fotheringay' is. To a certain degree Sandy did seize the responsibility for her recording career, came up with really good songs and musicians. Trevor did a very good job producing. I think a young female entering the music business today has a healthier, more balanced attitude about how to organise her professional and her private life. Sandy had very high standards professionally and at the same time was insecure emotionally… I think she went through hard times because of that. Part of her wanted not to be the band leader. My surmise is that she must have been relieved that the group were disbanded, but without the secure context of a group she toured very, very rarely as a solo artiste. Sandy was proved right in the end, she knew herself well enough to know that she wouldn't tour without a band. One thing I can say for sure is, though I plead guilty to not believing in the group, I still believe it was the correct thing for Sandy to disband the group. Their financial unsoundness was destroying them anyway.

Note from the webmaster: I have bundled both interviews together because I do not wish to take an official stand in this (still ongoing) discussion.