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An Interview With Sandy Denny Recorded 5 March 1977

Hokey Pokey #11, April 1988

Courtesy of Patrick Humphries
Copyright © 1988 Hokey Pokey. Reproduced by permission
Submitted by Dr. Levent Varlik from Turkey.

PH. The first thing people will want to know, is why so long between Old Fashioned Waltz and the new album? [Rendezvous].

SD. Well the album was in fact finished last June and I was going to go out on the road in October but things didn't happen the way I wanted, because I wanted to take a band and… I don't know… It was all a bit up in the air and you know, the dates were all a bit confusing and everything so eventually I decided to knock the whole thing on the head. Of course with me doing that, which in some ways may have been silly on my part, Island didn't want to put it out without me working, so it's been in the can for this long - and obviously because of the length of time between Old Fashioned Waltz and this one, it seems even longer now, but it would have been a year less if it had come out when it was going to.

PH. So the album was ready for last June… how long did it take you to write stuff for that.

SD. I wrote it mostly over that winter period before we went in… we went in around March last year and you know, it was up to around June… No!… it probably wasn't that early..about December, January and February. I was writing all the time at home and I had everything ready virtually, including all the words, when I went into the studio.

PH. Do you find writing very easy?

SD. Well it's a funny thing, because it's a very difficult question to answer. People usually ask me how I write, and really, I don't know. I don't find it easy, but at the same time, it does come naturally - and I still don't know which comes first, the cart or the horse. It's very odd, because sometimes I might have an idea for a tune in my head and I'll play it on the piano and the words start to gradually come and yet on another occasion I've written words and sort of in the back of my mind I've got a feeling of the tune, and stuff like that, but I mean it's not an easy business because I don't like sending duff wording out. I write the words to coincide with the tune in that, certain vowel sounds produce a nicer note so if you hold on a certain note you're gonna get a better sounding thing. You have to be very careful because the words also have to be the right ones, so you know, I do an awful lot of whittling down and throwing away and starting again. Songwriting and just writing poetry are a different thing because like, you have to bear in mind that you're not speaking the words and the sound of the whole thing, especially with my own singing, because I do tend to like… I expect I am a little bit stylized in my own little box, you know, like I've stylized myself over a period of time, you know, which has enabled me to be able to write in a certain way. Sometimes I find some people's writing so clumsy that I can't believe it, you know… they send me tapes and stuff to listen to—songs they think would be really good for me—of course I always bung it on the tape recorder and listen to it, and I just don't understand how they can think that—It means they don't really understand.

PH. I think the title track of the last album Old Fashioned Waltz was probably the best thing you did as a solo, with the blend of words, music, production and playing, all of those things seemed to fit really well together.

SD. Yes, it was very atmospheric and you could really picture it, which I think is very important.

PH. Can you remember what sparked off the theme - it sounds like you're watching an old movie on the tele…

SD. Yes, well that was it. I started playing it on the piano - I sort of … I kind of got this idea and I started to get more and more into it… I'd started this kind of waltz rhythm on the piano and it really captured me in something I couldn't get out of. That's why I started it off so simply, because it was supposed to evoke that sort of spotlight in the Ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire sort of thing, you know. That's why the actual orchestration on that which Harry Robinson did, really works. I'm not saying that everything that Harry's done on my records works - I mean he's been on all of them - but I don't say everything he's done has come off, I mean not the way I wanted it, but that one certainly did because he really got the feeling himself from it.

PH. I didn't think there was anything with that sort of atmosphere on the new album. I think the one track that you've tried to do that sort of epic thing on the new album is All Our Days. It seems almost an exercise for the producer to get a particular sound on it - I mean if you say you wrote it in the winter months, there's a very autumnal sound to it, but it doesn't really cut the same sort of ice that Waltz did.

SD. Well I might agree with you except… It was expected to… you know it's about all the seasons and I tried to apply the idea of a year, and all the things that happen within a year, to ones lifetime. I think it does work, because Harry's tried very hard to get across what the words are saying - O.K. It's a very difficult thing to do to write like that - I mean actually I wrote that on the piano, that one, but as you realise I've only done it with orchestra… there isn't anything else… there no rhythm section or anything like that, so it's a very difficult thing to do. What you've basically got is my set of words, my tune and my structure and Harry's interpretation of what my words have said. If you don't forget that, and if you bear that in mind… o.k. it might be a bit schmaltzy in places even for my liking, but I don't mind that because I'm a bit of a sucker for that anyway, you know, and I have to bow to other people, you know, ‘too much for me’. I think it's very emotive what he's written.

PH. I think of your stuff on the album, Donkey Ride is the one that really hits you straight off.

SD. Yes that's my favourite track on the album actually!

PH. You've done a really good version of Candle In The Wind.

SD. Thanks! I just think it's a lovely song anyway - I had a feeling for it you know, I wondered if it would be a mistake to do it, being an Elton John song and everything…. and Richard Thompson playing guitar on that, which is great because he hasn't played on anything, you know what he's been like. But he only did that a few weeks ago and he really was incredibly into it - I think he was relieved to get back on the electric guitar and start wailing away.

PH. I interviewed Richard a couple of weeks ago and he was very reticent about what he'd done in the past, even to the point of denying that he actually sort of wrote things but that he just soaked up influences. I was talking to him about Ashley Hutchings and the Albion Dance lot and I asked him if he was still interested in that sort of music and he said “oh very much”, and I said “would it ever be possible that he might just get up and jam with them” and he said “no” he didn't want to bring everyone else down… but it's good to hear that he's back in the studio.

SD. Yes, it is good… I wish that I'd gone to that concert last week [Albions], mind you I heard that it wasn't as good as I think it should have been - of course it was their first gig and give them a chance, you know… I'm glad I didn't go to it in that way because the first gig of anything is always a bit dodgy, especially when its at the Drury Lane Theathre… I mean that's going to freak them out. They didn't really do much old stuff at all apparently.

PH. Richard was loathe to talk about Fairport but you left and then re-joined, and I was talking to Bob Offenden at the NME about it and he was saying that Rising For The Moon thing seemed from the outside to be a sort of catastrophic sort of venture…

SD. Well in some ways it was really because at the time, Trevor [Lucas] had joined the group… my husband… and I wasn't seeing very much of him… I'd been working an awful lot on my own… I'd been to the States for two months by myself, you know, without even a band… and it can get you down a bit and I wasn't seeing very much of Trevor, and then they asked me to join and I really did think about it but then I thought “well o.k.” but 'cos quite frankly, I just missed Trevor so much that I mean, it was either that or you know, it's the final thing that breaks up people when they don't see enough of each other. So… when I joined them, they weren't writing very much material and you know, I wrote quite a bit for them but… it wasn't a total catastrophe but it could have been better but I think everybody had just about had it at that time, they were really… like we'd been messed up everywhere with management - we were in terrible trouble financially - you probably read about it. When I joined they were in dreadful financial straights, because I mean we were just being ripped off by a manager who meant well, totally meant well, but completely blew it and like, left them in a dreadful state. Afterwards everybody just got so depressed - I mean it was one of those dreadfully depressing situations that we couldn't do anything about really and I think it was just a lack of enthusiasm and incentives really 'cos everything we were doing, like we were working and all the money we were making was going straight into the hole. I think people just lost their spark and then Dave Mattacks left because he couldn't handle it anymore and then Jerry Donahue decided he was going to leave and like, when Jerry decided to leave, I think Trevor and I just thought “fair enough, knock it on the head”.

PH. I know a lot of people were very upset when you left and when the whole thing fizzled out generally.

SD. Yes it virtually has fizzled out but don't write that down, because obviously it's something that's going to hurt them a lot more… I mean they're going through some pretty bad times even now.

PH. Simon's [Nicol] back…

SD. Well I mean they could go on and they could suddenly gain strength, I mean there's no saying really, but I think there was a time when Trevor and I just thought “well we really did have to just like knock it on the head for the final time”… and we just didn't do very much…

PH. I was going to ask you about that, because after Fairport split, the official rumour was that you and Trevor wanted to get off and do stuff on your own and together but that never materialised.

SD. No, it hasn't materialised really because basically we've had a lot to do… ovbiously you know that I'm expecting in July, so I'm not going to work now until after… I will do a concert tour in October or November - about eight concerts, and Trevor's going do to some work too. Up until this point, what with doing the record and just on and off doing like, little odd things, like I've only done television shows since I left Fairport, I'm really glad, because it's true that Trevor and I will work together and we'll probably be doing another album shortly, which just won't be me on my own but I don't really want to talk about that now.

PH. Will you be singing with him…

SD. Not on this album because he's producing and I think its always a bit difficult to actually sit back and assess when you're performing as well. Getting back to this, I'm really glad that we both haven't worked very much because we've worked so much in the past… god knows, I've been on the road for nearly twelve years and I've just never really stopped. I tell you, its actually fantastic just to spend a year at home and see the seasons go by instead of say blasting off to Australia in the middle of winter. It really starts to totally disorientate you so much, that you begin to lose your touch with reality. That sounds a bit sort of trite I know, but its so true. It becomes very unreal and detrimental. When I do go back and do some more stuff, I'm going to be much more enthusiastic for having had a break.

PH. Have you been writing in this break since you finished this album [Rendezvous]?

SD. Not much. I've written a couple of songs but I haven't really. I like to write a lot but a lot of the time I write under pressure very well - that's my problem because when I know I've got a schedule to keep, I know I can work better because I just say that you know, tonight's the night I've really got to churn something out. Once I start and I push myself, I forget that I'm writing under pressure and it just all starts coming out. Unless I've got a real motive I can find it quite difficult to write something.

PH. You've left folk singing long behind… it was just a step on the ladder for you…

SD. I know what you're saying… but no its not actually because if you study the way I sing at all, you'll find that the influences are quite heavy in fact. I have a method of singing that's… like I was Maddy Prior last night and we went up to Cropredy and we were singing with Peggy and he sort of put on a show at the village school and he was frightened nobody was going to turn up… and I was round at Maddy's and like we decided that we'd just bomb up there and do it… and she's fantastic at sort of white gospel singing as much as she is at like singing traditional stuff but I mean there's a lot of similarities even though our voices are completely different - she has a very bell-like clear voice but there is a style that has been inundated… instilled in us since a very early age… that we'll probably never ever get rid of. So you see, it's all very well to say that it was a passing phase for me… because it was in a way because my writing developed after I started singing folk songs in the clubs… and from playing guitar and stuff, I went back to the piano and learnt how to sing and play at the same time, which I found virtually impossible to start with. Underneath it all you can still hear that it's definitely there. I've got my own style of singing which a lot of people haven't. I mean I don't sound like anyone else as far as I know… but that's where it all came from… that and my classical upbringing… classical music… so I wouldn't totally disregard folk music as being one of my greatest influences, because it must have been.

PH. Liege and Lief was possibly the turning point for the English “folk-rock”. How did you see that at the time?

SD. Well we weren't really sure what was going to happen because we didn't know how everyone was going to take it. It was very very odd actually. We did this concert at the Festival Hall and we were really holding our breath when we went on… we didn't know how it was going to affect the audience or anything. We even got Bert Lloyd to come down - of course it went down a storm and Bert Lloyd was one of the first people backstage to say “it was the most exciting thing I've heard for years”. Of course that was like a seal of approval and from then on it just sort of crunched through… it was pretty special for a while because it was so different. Nobody had ever thought of doing it before, which seems odd. But at the time we had a pretty good line-up. Mind you I still don't recall that time very clearly because it was just after the accident Fairport had and we lost Martin. Everybody was still in shock and we didn't really know what we were doing… we just sort of did these crazy things… but it worked. I know what happened to me. I wanted my own life, which was why I wanted to branch out. I really call this the.. I was with Fairport because I don't really call the second time I joined them, because it wasn't mind boggling at all. I'm not ashamed of it. It just didn't spark off the way it might have done had everything been going smoothly, the finances and everything. It might just have sparked off like it did in the old days which it was quite capable of doing. Most of the time we were so bloody worried about everything and you lose a lot of enjoyment from that.

PH. Looking back at that early period, there were such a lot of good writers in it that it was almost too much for it to contain, people like Richard and…

SD. Well that's true, you've hit the nail on the head there because as a matter of fact, Swarb and I were always somehow a very frictious couple of people to have in a band all at one go. He's always had a mind of his own and so have I. We were quite often conflicting, not to the point where we got to fisticuffs or anything but it was a pressure and there was almost a point where you had to ignore you were having a kind of fracas of some description… the pair of us would be here and there on the stage and it would be kind of “never the twain shall meet”. I think you were bound to get this when you've got Swarb who is a total extrovert and likes to write his own stuff as well and I feel like, perhaps he didn't enjoy doing some of the songs that I liked and that I'd written say. No detriment to Swarb at all, I mean fair enough! Richard is very strong to have in a band. He will always manage to get across what he wants and get it, you know! I don't really know for sure, but after I left, I think Richard and Swarb probably had fair amount of friction going between them. So three of us in the band was a fairly volatile group of people… and what with Tyger as well, who has also got a mind of his own. It was no wonder that somebody had to give eventually, and I was one of them.

PH. Out of all Richard Thompson's songs, why did you choose Fool For You [on Rendezvous].

SD. I don't know… I was just very close to it, I mean I loved his songs. It's just always been one of my favourites that he's written… I mean I'd do a whole album of them… [laughs]. It's a lovely song.

PH. What made you choose the other stuff that you didn't write yourself?

SD. Well Candle In The Wind… I've always liked that and I was playing it on the piano and Trevor came in and said “that's nice” and he said let's do it. I still had pangs about whether I should or not and eventually when I did it, I was glad that I did. I've done Silver Threads And Golden Needles but, don't say this, but I'm not sure if it really comes off as well as it should have done. I think it's a bit too slow. I recorded more than I've actually got on the album so…

PH. A lot of the things on Old Fashioned Waltz were old standards?

SD. Yes… Oh I've always liked those - if I'd had room on this album I'd have done a couple more of those kind of things… like Fats Waller type of things and Inkspots type things… I've always adored that since I was tiny. Of course that's my other source of influence.

PH. Have you ever thought of doing an oldies album?

SD. I have thought of doing it but I don't go into studios that often… I mean I should do, I'm just lazy really. [laughs]. I'd love to get a really great band along those kind of lines and really get an ace selection of those type of songs that I've known and loved since I was a child and I reckon I could do a really good job on it.

PH. The song Fotheringay was you writing a song about a specific place… and yet a lot of your later stuff is a bit indecisive…

SD. Well actually, what happens usually, is that every song I write is about a specific incident but I've got the style of writing which always seems a little bit evasive but is in fact … I thought well alright, these incidents are specifics, and the people I'm writing about are real people and they really do exist but if I was just going to write about them, then I may as well not write an album… so I sort of make it… I always write the song and kind of make it into something which everybody who is listening to it can actually identify with to a certain extent, and which applies to them. Perhaps you're right, perhaps it does come across as a little evasive… sort of indecisive. I did try recently to be a little more down to earth about things but I do find it rather difficult, because I'm a bit shy of people knowing me… I mean for instance, I adore Joni Mitchell but I do think she went round wearing her heart on her sleeve and I adore listening to those songs but I wouldn't like it to be me whose painting it around for everyone to know. The last thing I'd want everyone to know is my business. I have to be a little bit shy about what I let people know I'm thinking. I suppose in a lot of ways I'm like that anyway so it probably comes through.

PH. What about Dylan as an influence on your writing?

SD. I don't know if he was an actual influence on me although I guess he was but I wouldn't compare myself with him… he's just a genius for writing the right words and getting his point across. He's another whose very evasive so perhaps I got that off him and of course I'm besotted with Dylan anyway so I'm sure he did influence me but I just couldn't tell you how.

PH. There seems to be very little narrative on albums these days. Do you like to tell stories in your songs?

SD. I would like to write more like that… you know, time passes and if you can learn how to do it, that's great but if you can't… I mean I often throw out things that I think just aren't working. They might start off like that but I think “no it's not happening” and I just throw it in the bin.

PH. Have you any plans to go touring after the happy event?

SD. Yes I'm hoping to do some concerts either in October or November then after that I'll go to the States for a little while.

PH. Any idea who you'll be taking on the road with you?

SD. No not off hand really. I haven't' given it too much thought… taking one thing at a time sort of thing, It'll probably be the same old band - Gerry Conway I might get if he's not doing anything at the time - possibly Pat Donaldson if he's over here… I'm not really sure. It would be nice to have a change but I've never really though about it - I use the same old people but that's because they're the best.

PH. Would you go out with an orchestra?

SD. I don't know - I don't know how big a production I want to make it into but I wouldn't mind taking a smallish orchestra because I've never actually done that before - I've never taken an orchestra before. I was going to do it in October but like, things didn't quite work out - we should have done it anyway, I mean I wasn't exactly pushing it… I'm afraid I'm as much to blame as anybody. I guess I should really start putting my mind to it.

PH. What about the United States… you'll be going there…

SD. Yes I think we'll bomb over there - my brother's working over there at the moment. He's working for “Parliament”, this great big black band who have an incredible stage show. He's a civil engineer but he's their stage manager. He's getting a house in Los Angeles and I think we might go over there and get some super duper enthusiasm to rub off on us. I'm not trying to be detrimental to this country but it's going through a bit of a bad time at the moment and I think a lot of people here have lost their will to live almost [laughs], never mind like just their inspiration. I think a few months away and a little bit of mixing around… and perhaps do an album over there.

PH. Bert Jansch did that and he said it was quite an interesting turnaround with American musicians…

SD. Yes, in fact he told me the enthusiasm comes off the rest of the musicians, especially if you haven't worked with American musicians before - it's like, quite a difference and I think one does need a little bit of a change every now and again. I think now's the time to go over and make an album because I've never done it before. Over here you do tend to… like “oh well we'd better go down and try again,… or take thirty-six… or like, let's knock this on the head”… you know, that kind of thing. I mean it does tend to be like that over here… I mean it's one of those inevitable things. I've had American people play on my album over here and just having them in the studio… they do tend to pressurise you a little and if it doesn't work they just say “let's knock it on the head”. Yes, I'd like to make an album with just all American musicians… I mean it's not that I prefer them, I just think it would be nice for me to do it just for a complete change.

PH. There used to be a lot of categorisation of music in the past and people would say jazz, blues, folk or whatever… do you think this has broken down in recent years and that it's just getting to be “music”?

SD. Well I hope so because its an odd trip to be labelled as a “folk singer” which I have virtually always had for some unknown reason, but I somehow wish they'd knock the folk bit off because its misleading, but I guess I have got a style there which is categorised slightly as being in the folk idiom but really, I'm not writing in the folk style and I haven't done for a long time and I wish people would wake up and like, knock all these labels on the head because it gets a bit boring after a while.

PH. After Fairport and Fotheringay, you did a guest spot on Led Zeppelin Four. Was that a conscious thing on your part…

SD. No, they rang me up and asked me to do it and I though “why not”, I'm game to do anything really, I mean I did the Tommy thing as well. I'm not proud as far as like you know, “my god man, if it's not folk I don't want to know about it”, because I'm not really like that at all. I really have a wide appreciation of what I like, if it's good and it appeals to me, that's great, because I'm not a snob.

PH. Do you think it's difficult for girl singers and writers to get accepted in England?

SD. Yes, I think it probably is, I mean if I was in America it might not have been nearly as hard for me to really get off the ground. I do think they have a bit of a hard time, I think a lot of it is that people just don't think they're a permanent fixture over here… I mean I've been here for so long that I'm beginning to wonder if I've grown roots. I think its difficult for people to totally accept that you're part of the musical establishment in this country and then of course, if you haven't had a number one record it is difficult to get across… people like taxi drivers see me carrying a guitar or something and they say “what do you do for a living” and I say “I'm a singer” and they say “what's your name”, “Sandy Denny”, “I've never heard of you”.

PH. You were very much involved in the “Sixties”, how do you look back from those times and the “folk boom”, with affection?

SD. I think we missed the “folk boom”. I came in just after it really started to fizzle out again, and then I think with the resurgence of electric folk music which we did with Fairport, then I think then it revived a little bit. Basically, when I was doing the folk clubs, I got the impression that it was a dying trade almost. I'm not saying that I'm complaining about the size of my audience because they were all always very good but in general, I think it was definitely on the wane and then it just got an extra spurt when Fairport did their thing. So really, I don't have too many feelings about it… I haven't really had too much time to sit down and think about it, except just recently. If I had my time again, I would of course do things completely differently… I would never have got myself involved with all the crooks and everything that I did through the years, but of course, you're always wise after the event. As part of the scene I was very much on the outside of it all really. Actually, I suppose I look back on those days with a great deal of affection… I mean I'm probably putting it down by saying it was on the wane at that time… when I look back on it, there was a folk club on virtually every corner… like there was the Scots Hoos, the John Snow, there was Cousins… god knows how many folk clubs, all within throwing distance. You could go up there any night and you'd be sure of finding the little crown like John Renbourn and Bert [Jansch] and Jackson Frank and Annie Briggs and all those kind of people and it used to be a really fantastic little community… and Trevor, mustn't forget him. There was his stream as we… the Australian traditional stuff.

PH. Yes, it came across on the albums and interviews that there was a lot of cross referencing of ideas, like the Americans were coming over and picking up ideas, like Dylan and Paul Simon learnt so much from Martin Carthy.

SD. Oh yes, I used to know Paul Simon really well in those days, and Arty [Garfunkel] as well… Paul was the most expressive of the lot, he used to go out for about twenty-five quid a night. Yes, he picked up a hell of a lot and he really studied people, he was a great studier. Of course he left when Sound Of Silence was going to be a hit [laughs] … he was up and away and he never looked back. Martin is probably one of the biggest influences in this country. He's influenced a hell of a lot of people - obviously to their advantage because… the thing with Martin is that he always studies his subject totally, I mean like, you will always find that he's picked out “the” best words. He'll go to Cecil Sharp House and dig out words and he'll get about four versions of a song and he will take it apart and stick it together the way he wants it… and he studies the tunes and his actual singing control and everything is quite phenomenal - he's a great guitar player and he's just got what it takes… the brains, you know like, that really get it across. I think he's done an awful lot for this country and for people, like Maddy and Steeleye and all those people have learnt from Martin as well.

PH. Did you see the All You Need Is Love, the Tony Palmer thing on Saturday [TV]… I mean I was wondering that as someone who missed out the sixties… I have this sort of picture of like all the folkies hanging around together and you know, just picking up ideas and it seemed to me that they did come out on the records… and now there doesn't seem to be that tradition around, a lot of it seems to have dissipated.

SD. I think its a lot to do with just the state of the country, I mean people just really can't make ends meet keeping folk clubs open… I mean that's a lot to do with the reason that there aren't so many gigs to do and I think of course, the less gigs there are to do, the less people there are capable of getting one of those precious gigs. I mean, the actual incentive to become a folk singer has totally disappeared. I would imagine whereas now most people think if they want to be in a band they want to be in “a band” or in the “punk-rock”. Not that I'm putting it down, it just seems to be that that's the way things are going and like, folk seems to be taking a bit of a dive, you know.

PH. Well the folk influence is very strong on a lot of things that you wouldn't call folk music and may run through the “New Wave” thing if it's going to continue?

SD. Well who knows! We'll see.

[Exit Sandy to go on stage]